Up next in 10
V Carbon Foamless Performance Run Shoes. For Real & Run Able. Interview with Founder Paul Vawter.
5K views
May 23, 2024
In the video, RTR Editor Sam interviews (via Zoom) Paul Vawter inventor and developer of the V Carbon performance run shoe with no foam. Sam has run them. The foot sits suspended on a Kevlar fabric taut trampoline with the chassis a rigid plastic or carbon. It actually runs really well with noted energy return, far less foam compression as there is none and no shock transmitted. A totally different and promising concept in development for several years that at some point we hope will be available.
View Video Transcript
0:00
Today we're going to have a conversation with Paul Vauder, the founder of V-Carbon
0:05
He has invented a completely foamless shoe. I have actually run it and it is quite amazing
0:10
He's going to get into the technology, the biomechanics, and just how this shoe might
0:16
eventually come to market. Hi everybody, Sam from Road Trail Run and we're here with Paul Vauder of V-Carbon
0:25
I met Paul in his invention two or three years ago and have been following his progress
0:34
What Paul has developed and has now done quite a bit of testing and I've run in them is a
0:39
completely foamless shoe. Don't tune out right now. It actually is pretty amazing and it actually works
0:50
Paul, give us your two cents worth on V-Carbon and completely foamless shoes
0:57
How does it work? Where did you come from? What the heck's the story
1:01
Go ahead. Well, first question, Sam, can you see me? Absolutely. Okay, great, because I can't see myself
1:12
For some reason, I got off the screen and as long as you can see me is all that matters
1:19
Anyways, yeah, my name's Paul Vauder and Sam, first of all, I've got to say, it's been a
1:27
joy to work with you because you're open to new ideas. The reason why I reached out to you, Sam, is because we met two years ago
1:39
We haven't actually physically met, but CJ Albertson had one of our shoes in Boston two
1:48
years ago, right? Yeah, two years ago. You got to try the shoe then
1:56
Part of the reason why I reached out to you, I don't know anyone harder working in the industry
2:03
The amount of content that you have to review and get out is like four jobs for anyone
2:11
I reached out to you and of course, you got to try the shoe
2:16
What's taken place in that two years since you tried the first versions of the carbon
2:22
we really had to change the design because that version was not legal with WA
2:30
That was a composite shoe that you had and of course, WA requires everything to be single wall
2:36
It took about six months, but I've had a lot of experience in my professional life
2:45
I owned a company called Dynamic Tooling and what we did, Sam, we developed first articles
2:51
really for the biggest companies on the planet. If you were, say, GM and you had an airbag that was injuring people, well, you would
3:01
call up someone like Dynamic Tooling and we would develop those products
3:07
More importantly, I had developed rapid tooling processes where we could do this much faster
3:14
than typically machining molds. We had, and then the company grew and grew and of course, we had Ford and GM and then
3:23
we went into medical with Baxter. We started picking up defense contractors like Rockwell and then we started patenting
3:31
these tooling processes. Every day, we're still making parts, designing parts, and composite parts for these brands
3:42
Of course, I had already had 10 years carbon fiber experience when I was real young because
3:48
I owned a windsurfing company. For 10 years, we were making them out of carbon fiber and sending them all over the world
3:58
Once I got into plastic injection molding, that's really the holy grail because now you're
4:06
dealing with real money with the biggest companies on the planet. Plastic injection molding
4:14
Today, we're going to talk about a completely foamless shoe. Tell us a bit about the genesis of the foamless shoe and what is the theory behind it
4:29
I've run in them, one on each foot with other shoes such as the Invincible Run from Nike
4:37
It is a remarkably different but also familiar experience. It doesn't feel odd despite what it may sound like
4:49
Describe it to us. What is the foamless shoe? What it is, Sam, is that when I looked at the foam shoe, it was primarily my experience
5:03
with Nike. They had approached my company about doing their prototyping. A lot of times, failures in life is where we actually end up
5:17
I've had a lot of failures in life. One of the failures with Nike was because we were developing all these products for the
5:24
biggest companies on the planet. Of course, Nike sent a couple people
5:28
They had sent SLA models. They wanted to do their prototyping here in the States to speed things up
5:36
We couldn't even come up even close with a financial arrangement. As I'm driving home, my kids were out in the backyard, jumping on the trampoline
5:49
I had an expensive pair of Nikes on at the time. I jumped on the trampoline
5:54
I thought, this is odd. I'm still feeling that pressure under the bottom of my mats and my heel bone
6:00
I immediately took off my shoes. That pressure went away. That's because this trampoline is going down a foot
6:08
I walked to the side of the trampoline. I still had my shoes off where the big steel springs are
6:15
My foot only went down about three-eighths of an inch. It was more comfortable than jumping in the middle of the trampoline with my, at the time
6:25
$200 Nikes. I thought, maybe, just maybe, you don't even need foam
6:34
That's where the original idea came in. Where it started was very, very crude
6:41
I don't know if you can see a picture of how crude the shoe is
6:46
This got its nickname as the Franken-shoe. It was horrible. It weighed two pounds
6:52
It was the clunkiest thing in the world. You have to start somewhere because the issue with the foamless, it's never been done
7:01
In fact, according to the U.S. Patent Office, it's never been done
7:06
Of course, according to WA, it's never been done. We didn't have anyone to follow
7:13
It has no relationship to a plated shoe or even a foam shoe
7:17
What we did, we started with this. They started getting a little bit better, just a little bit better
7:26
Then we thought, well, we had some crazy ideas. It just started getting more refined
7:35
Then I'll even show you some other models. You can see here that this has your traditional, more spoon shape
7:44
Then we started saying, well, Sam, we've got a lot of ground to cover
7:51
Hopefully, up to this point, it's been very fascinating and entertaining for your viewers
7:59
to actually hear about a new operating system. Don't get me wrong, Sam
8:07
I'm old enough to remember the very first foam shoe in 1972
8:12
Yeah, I ran marathons in them. It wasn't much to them. I remember when we were all running on Adidas and when the first foam shoe came out
8:22
we were poking it. It was unbelievable. The majority of your followers, they don't know any other product
8:39
They didn't grow up on vulcanized rubber shoes. But I'm just saying that it was really a revolutionary product
8:48
50 years later, companies- Paul, while we're 50 years back, comment a second on Nike Air because that was the next
9:00
innovation after slabs of EBA foam. I ran on all the original ones
9:07
I had my PR in the Air Mariah. So when we talk about air, there's carbon, there's foam
9:14
What is the reaction of air, for example, in the Alphafly? How does that compare to a trampoline
9:23
Are you talking about the AirPods themselves or what part of it? The AirPods themselves, that technology
9:30
I think that I could probably give you a one-hour dissertation on that
9:40
AirPods themselves, you got to realize when they came about was in automotive
9:46
What we would use these for in automotive were in your RVs
9:51
When you would load down an RV, you would load up your airbag. We've seen them in lowriders
9:57
The lowriders have a nitrogen tank and they jump their cars up and down
10:04
That's a California thing. We don't have those in New Hampshire. We got too much snow for those things, even to raise them
10:11
The reason why we don't want to use this product in our product, because
10:21
we believe that we have something that is many, many, many times more powerful
10:30
by keeping the foot suspended in space. We don't want, this is usually a thick polyethylene right here and it's very soft
10:40
What we want to do, we want to use that rigid carbon to load up your energy to
10:46
really turn you into a human catapult. Now, what this does here, and this is my own humble opinion, just from a materials guy
10:56
If I saw this product, I think one of the reasons why this shoe, even though it almost
11:02
weighs two ounces more than this shoe, at least in a size 11, it does
11:07
That's about right. But yet, a lot of testers on the internet, I won't name them, but they're independent guys
11:17
have not seen a huge performance difference between these two shoes. In between those two, I'm with the Vaporfly
11:26
It requires a very specific strike, despite the broad heel, despite the stability
11:35
But now, that's the world record shoe as of right now for men
11:43
As you look at the future with the carbon, let's talk a little bit about where you're headed
11:50
Folks are going to want to know, eventually, hopefully, they'll be able to run them, try them
11:59
Give us a little bit of a sense of where you're headed. What's your next steps in terms of product and so on
12:06
Yeah. In fact, I'm glad you pulled us out of that conversation because performance is a whole
12:14
area that we really can't comment on because we don't have a production product
12:22
We're speculating because we're materials experts what the V-Carbon will be able to do
12:29
Without getting into names, you've had some pretty serious elites try the shoe
12:35
And without saying who and what, what were some of their comments with your prototypes
12:42
Yeah. I think everyone that's been on the shoe has been really impressed by the speed of the shoe
12:53
They do feel the energy return, but there's no foam. And this is what's tough because if someone would feel that shoe and just walk across the room
13:06
they would see how fast the V-Carbon responds. So the V-Carbon, it takes foam, believe it or not
13:14
You won't know it until you get on a V-Carbon and you compare it. It takes foam a long time to compress and come down and then respond
13:25
Even the super foams, like the ZoomX foam. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because they're still a friction-based product, meaning that that's how it gives you cushion
13:38
is I'm going to resist your foot on the way down. And what happens is that when you are on any foam shoe compared to V-Carbon
13:50
the V-Carbon is going to be quite a ways ahead, meaning that from your touchdown to toe off, because it doesn't go through what
14:03
well, what one reviewer called, he named it. He called it delay of the squish
14:11
A guy named Scott Boatwright coined it because that was the first thing that he noticed
14:17
He says, Paul, this shoe already has me going on my next stride
14:23
I felt the same. There's no delay. Yeah. Yet there's, it's not, people are going to think, oh my God, it's a frame
14:32
It's a trampoline thing. It's going to be harsh. It's going to be hard
14:37
It is not. It is not. It feels a little different stepping into them
14:41
And we often hear shoes are sold by step in feel, which to me is only part of the story
14:50
It does feel a little different. It does feel like you're not kind of sinking way down into the sock liner
14:57
Although you can add, you put a sock liner in it. Yeah
15:01
And then all the foam. So, you know, when we, we, we often see on the internet and I, you know, I don't want to
15:07
criticize, but these silly videos where people are squishing the heel of the shoes, you know
15:13
And I said, oh my God, that, that, that really has not much to do other than it's showing how
15:19
much softness there is. So here you don't feel that kind of squish, but you feel very direct
15:26
It's very direct, even walking and pleasant and pleasant. It's not unpleasant
15:31
That's for sure. Yeah. I mean, you know, we've been in development for, for coming on seven years
15:38
I mean, you know, Sam, we have thousands and thousands and thousands of hours into this
15:46
And in the early versions were, were very brutal, you know I'll be the first to admit
15:53
I mean, I think we, we could get a runner, maybe a block, you know, on our first shoes
15:58
Okay. As you'd come back and he'd say, God, this thing's fast, but man, it kills my foot, you know
16:04
So no, it, it, it, it's been definitely a work in progress
16:09
And, and, and, and, you know and it's so new, the technology is so new, honestly, Sam, I
16:18
can tell you, there's more, we don't know about it than, than, than do, you know
16:22
But, you know, meaning that foam has had 50 years to develop and, you know, billions of
16:28
dollars of all the brands focused on it. And so we're B carbon is today could be a totally different place, you know, even five
16:36
years from now, you know? So what are the implications for making this kind of shoe versus foam in terms of speed
16:44
to market, sustainability, weight, et cetera, when you, when you get to what you want to
16:50
do for production? Yeah. So, so for starters, I'm glad you asked that question because for starters, the chassis
16:57
is 100% recyclable. Okay. The second thing, we haven't had a chassis go flat
17:03
We've got over a thousand miles on one of them. And if you don't overstress plastic, it'll flex millions of times
17:13
The reason why a foam shoe goes flat is because it's plastic also
17:20
I mean, I mean, Piva is nylon. And what happens is when you have air bubbles and when you come down at 400 pounds, you're
17:30
especially on a concentrated small area. And you can see that in your insole when you're insoles, what happens is, is that you're
17:37
you're taking the plastic beyond where it can be. Right. And you get a crease
17:44
So you have millions of air bubbles, right? Right. So if I take a straw and just, you know, next time you're at the store and get a clear
17:51
straw, just pinch it and you'll get a crease. So meaning that if I didn't bottom out the foam, I, the foam shoe would never go flat
18:01
It wouldn't. But the foam shoe at a durometer about a short a 40 ish, right
18:08
Only has about a 40 PSI compressive strength. Sam, a big guy like you coming down at 400 pounds, your mats are so tiny
18:18
Let me grab my, my little, I want you to see now this is an anatomically correct model
18:25
If you're a pure, pure midfoot striker, can you see how small these bones are right here? Yeah
18:32
And then your heel bone right here is like a little tiny talent
18:36
You can generate over a thousand PSI if you're a pure heel striker and you can generate on
18:44
your mats, 500 PSI. And we, and we tested it. And so I, again, I'm going to be very careful how I say this
18:56
Foam doesn't stand a chance. You've got something coming down on it
19:00
That's so much more force than foam can withstand. And so that's why it goes flat
19:07
If that makes sense. So the Kevlar itself, the Kevlar mat over time, will it, will it lose some of its
19:17
I guess what would you call it? Tensile strength will get softer. It's actually not even that taught
19:24
You'd be surprised. It's really not that taught. We don't run even the Kevlar mesh that, because we want it to conform somewhat to your foot
19:33
We don't want it like a, say like a drum on a snare drum. You know, right
19:38
We do want it to be able to conform to your foot because, you know, you have so many different
19:43
foot topographies. You have, you know, high arch, low arch. I mean, just, you know, there's basically what's happening
19:48
How would, how will it treat a high arch? I tend to have a high arch versus a flat arch
19:54
So let's go back to this. So what, what this is going to do is that lift it up, lift it up
20:02
Yeah. When you come down here, it's, it's going, as you come down here, this actually is going to
20:08
raise up. So what this trampoline has to do, it has to equalize its own pressure
20:15
Now all trampolines do this. If you think you have a problem with plantar fasciitis, then just jump on a trampoline
20:23
and you'll feel that material immediately come up to support your arch
20:28
Ah, that's interesting. So think of this as a trampoline, except we don't use steel springs all the way around
20:36
We're going to use a chassis that flexes, but it still uses the same basic physics of a trampoline
20:47
Okay. Now tell us a bit about the manufacturing, how, how in the future. Yeah
20:53
So, and, and, and also the, the, you know, the outsole, you know, as we have
21:00
an example here, you know, is just basically glued on. There's a teeny touch of foam here, but yeah
21:07
How, how you might, you know, get them re-soled, re, you know, re-upper
21:12
So if it, and of course it would depend a lot on, you know, who we partner with
21:18
We can absolutely make replaceable outsoles. It's not an issue at all
21:22
They can literally snap on and snap off. So you can go trail running one day, street running the next
21:27
Oh, neat. You know and, and, but, but as far as the outsole, I think, you know, a good example
21:36
the V-Carbon needs very little. It really doesn't need any foam at all, but it does need about at least a quarter inch
21:44
of something, because if we get, if we get the outsole too thin, you will literally lose traction
21:52
If, if you're running on pavement, it will little scooch out from underneath
21:57
Because it's not giving. Yeah. Yeah. Because, because what's happened is you still have a hard bottom to, to, to this, you know
22:05
this chassis has a hard bottom. So it really has a, you know, what's great about this shoe, it's, it's incredible for
22:11
trail running because you, you have a built-in rock plate. Number one, you, the rock will, you will never feel it on the bottom of the foot
22:19
And this, and the lateral strength of the chassis is so strong, it can't turn under itself
22:26
So, yeah, but we'd have to see that, you know, on very uneven terrain
22:31
Now we have, we have really, we have done quite a bit of testing in trail
22:37
I've never posted that. Maybe I should. But it's, it's very, very rigid, the chassis
22:45
So it's, it's, we've yet to have even a turned ankle on a chassis only because the
22:52
product can't roll under itself. And so, so the other thing I just want to mention, oh, maybe let's, let's get back to
23:01
your sustainability. So the chassis are 100% recyclable and even the mesh itself, this material here, I don't
23:08
really want to go into what it is and stuff, but it's, it's 100% recyclable
23:13
So the shoe that you have on, both the chassis and the foot mesh that you're on is 100% recyclable
23:22
And in terms of like a carbon footprint of manufacturing versus foam chassis, we have
23:28
a chassis, we have the Kevlar plate. We'll forget about the upper, you know, that that's can be what it is
23:37
Compared to a injection molding or compression molding process of a full foam
23:43
Yeah. Now what we have already molded, it's molded exactly like a spike
23:48
So the chassis is, so there's really, so if you wanted to do some studies on that compared
23:53
to foam, I'm not really here to, again, I'm not, I'm not the expert on foam, but, but
24:00
I will say that having a product that's 100% recyclable and it's coming out every 30 seconds
24:08
foam, foam processing is in the minutes, you know, it's not in the seconds because it has
24:15
to grow obviously. And then in terms of the cost of manufacturing
24:24
Now, cost of manufacturing would be very similar to a spike. You would have, depending on what upper that you wanted
24:33
Now, again, I'm just talking about the chassis and the foot mesh
24:39
It would be similar to a spike. A spike is about three ounces of plastic also
24:45
So it would be very similar. So can it be sold for $75? Yes
24:51
Will it be sold for $75? No, no, you got seven years into it
24:58
Well, but, but, but, you know, when we're talking about, you know, $500 shoes, $275
25:05
shoes, you know, I can't, I don't know what it costs them to make it probably a lot less
25:10
than that. But I think it's important that the simplicity of the pieces here, right
25:16
The simplicity of the, of the elements should make for a lower carbon footprint and a lower
25:24
manufacturing costs, and also more flexibility in design because you're, you're really only
25:34
molding a chassis, not a whole shoe and all the, you know, the, you know, the, you know
25:40
supercritical foams and all that pressure stuff. Yeah. So this is very simple, you know, and in terms of manufacturing, you know, it, injection
25:51
molding is available really anywhere in the world. I mean, you know, even where I live here in Southern California, I could literally drive
25:59
20 minutes in four directions and go to four plastic injection molders that can absolutely
26:05
mold these chassis all day long. So it's, it, it doesn't take any kind of specialized equipment
26:12
It only took us Sam, it only took us seven years to make it simple
26:17
Yeah, that's, oh, I love simplicity. So Paul, this has been really fascinating
26:23
Tell it, tell our viewers as best you can, what are the next steps
26:27
Because I think, you know, people are going to say, when can we get them? When can we get them? And I know this is a hard process, but just realistically, what, what's next for you guys
26:37
Well, what's next for us is, you know, Sam, this has been a real expensive ordeal
26:41
We, we need to partner, you know, either through venture or through brands
26:48
And, and, you know, it, it, it's at a really expensive process
26:54
Because, you know, we, our patent just, you know, to show you it's fully, we should have
27:01
we have filed all the patents. We've already heard back from the patent office
27:04
The great news is, is that there's never been anything like it. And so that process should be finalizing real soon
27:15
And the other exciting thing is after 18 months, World Athletics finally said, yeah, yeah
27:24
You're basically. Oh, did they, did they, did they approve the design and the
27:30
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Dr. Tony Arndt, we went around and around, you know, that was a long process because
27:40
we kept getting rejected and I kept reminding them on their own rule book
27:45
And then I said, well, I want to appeal this. And they said, well, the only guy you can appeal to is Tony Arndt is our, you know
27:53
he's the professor of biomechanics and I want to say Sweden. Am I close
28:00
So what's your letter? Yeah. Yeah. So I had to send a shoe to him and he agreed with, well, not only did I send a shoe
28:10
I sent a six minute video on it explaining why it should be approved. Right
28:18
And he finally came back and we posted that. I posted that correspondence on our Instagram of him saying, yeah, yeah, it fits
28:29
And I do approve the construction. So that's really great news. So are you considering also maybe with proper funding, doing your own initial run
28:40
Well, I would love that. In a perfect world, right? We would all like to build our own brand in a perfect world
28:49
But I think it's more important to get the product out, even if it's not, you know, your
28:56
ideal, you know, if we, if we say we, you know, I mean, if we end up partnering with a brand
29:04
that would be great, too. Okay, great. Well, this has been fascinating and super informative
29:11
And I've got to say, I really admire inventors who are dogged and really inventive
29:17
And this is really inventive in terms of running. It's completely different
29:25
It is unlike anything I've seen before. And, you know, it makes a, it proposes a paradigm shift in how we think about a running shoe
29:37
which is something that just tickles me. And I want to really thank you for letting me try them
29:45
And I've been pleased. I haven't run a ton in them, but I've been super pleased
29:51
And it's very promising. I want to thank you for your time, Paul, and want to wish you all the best
29:59
And after we post the video, I'll make sure you know where it is
30:03
So people who comment, you can, you can answer and, you know, discuss with them further
30:09
Okay, great. Great. I really appreciate you, Sam. Have a great day
30:15
Thank you. Bye now
#Running & Walking